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Robert Schmadtke interviews Boris Nad. Serbian author, representative of the Eurasian Movement, leading Fourth Political Theorist and friend of Open Revolt. Published with permission.
1. How do you and Prof Dugin came to include elements of Thelema by Crowley?
BN: I can not speak in Dugin`s name, but only in my name, and about my relation to Crowley. Crowley is a very interesting and contradictory personality, which typically exceeds his followers and interpreters. We can say: one person of magnetic charisma. Problem with Crowley is mainly a problem of interpretation, and the interpretation thereof. We should add to its propensity to scandal and mystification. „If we associate him with Satanism“, says Julius Evola, „it is because he himself invites us to do so“. Thus, the interest in this author is entirely natural. There is a strong metaphysical impulse in his doctrine.
2. Here it's seen a contradictory, to refer on Crowley and same time fit into Christianity, as Prof Dugin gave an interview on tuesday after Easter and did as good Christians do, sayin: „The Lord has risen from the dead“, expecting the other one to say: „He is indeed risen up“. How do you put that under one hat?
BN: Christianity exists in many different versions. Only the Orthodoxy managed to keep the vertical, indeed metaphysical perspective. It is a religion of deification. Catholicism is a religion of salvation. Protestantism is a rationalistic simplification of Christianity. If we ignore his need to scandalize and his anti-Christian rhetoric - in Crowley’s writings we obviously face significant and credible references to the rituals of ancient traditions. Some Crowley’s contacts with extrasensory world, according to many testimonies, were real, and some elements of his teaching undoubtedly have initiatic character. Let us mention here his concept of true will, the idea of self-discipline, and so on… The second principle „Liber Legis“ is: „The every man and every woman is a star“, in the ultimate transcendental sense. The aim of the Orthodox Christian is not just salvation, but the deification, not to be moral in the strict sense, but rather to become Christ. In other words, you are „face to face with God/gods“. This is not to „put all the same hat“, as the roads of Orthodox Christians differ from the roads that Crowley elected, but they are in both cases, evidences of deep transcendental impulse. If recall again the words of Julius Evola: „In dramatized form, it would seem here to be about, once again, the deep principle postulated by the concepts of the human being as a `star` (or as a `god`), whose presence constitutes the basis to face the perilous experiences of this life“.
3. The 4th political theory movement also uses the chaos star to identify with. As far as I know, that star belongs to chaos magic, something, which got its origin in and is practised by minor groups in North Britain, Scotland perhaps too. Due to what I have read, it claims to overcome contradictories in higher physics but does not question e. g. Einstein's theory of relativity itself – does the 4th political theory interfere with any of this? If not, what does the chaos star mean to it, to you?
BN: Each symbol is ambiguous. In geography, the eight-pointed star is compass, something that provides orientation, introducing order in the seemingly chaotic space, the geometric symbol of the Universe. In Orthodoxy, it is eight-pointed star of the Virgin Mary; It is found in religious icons. It is the morning star and evening star, a guide and point of orientation. It is the star of Lucifer, Ishtar and Venus, and a powerful symbol of the „chaos magic“... In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna says: „Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Ether, Spirit, Intelligence and Ego are my eight separated energies“. The symbol is basically an over-rational. It's impossible to explain in a rational way, at least not from the limited position of human beings. Our understanding of symbols is therefore necessarily incomplete, and their meanings, from our perspective, are contradictory. The symbol is possible to know, but can not be explained. Science is, of course, inferior method of cognition. Science is, after all, constantly redefined, changing their methods and findings. A rational approach is necessary, but is just not enough. Tradition is over-rational, and their learning over-temporal. Rene Guenon speak about their superhuman origin.
4. Philosophers like Alain de Benoist I started reading years ago and I like him. But here starts the problem: national conservative education academies publish his articles too, of course with permission, whereas mainstream society declares itself as leftwing liberal, defines Ezra Pond and Benoist etc. their enemies – what you gonna tell those narrow minded ideologists in a debate, who tolerate everything but other positions?
BN: Liberalism is the main ideology of American hegemony. It just seems tolerant of their opponents, but liberalism is, undoubtedly, a totalitarian ideology, which does not tolerate opposition. In the past, compared to communism or fascism, it used a somewhat "softer assets" to its enemies, but this time is now behind us. Today it is acting ruthlessly and brutally. Liberalism held the naked terror, bombs , occupation, military power (the U.S.), its allies are Salafits , Wahhabis , Ukrainian neo-fascists , etc. Today’s liberalism is the ideology of the sunset, which is trying to maintain at any cost, by any means necessary. Since liberalism can no longer expect to be tolerant of views that deny it. Ezra Pound was, let us remember, confined in a cage, like an animal. He may have had nothing to do against it, bearing in mind the true reality, the deep truth of such a society. But it says a lot about the liberal attitude towards his opponents.
5. All existing society constructions till now were plagued by corruption. One could say, corruption starts, when a child promises to Jesus, to be nice, when he'll give him a bicycle in reward. Or the other way round, when parents promise a certain reward to their kid, when it behaves nicely. How will the 4th political theory end corruption?
BN: Corruption is probably as old as human civilization - or even older than that. According to Christian belief, these are the „end times“, which preceded the arrival of the Antichrist. According to the Indian doctrine, we are living in the last in a series of regressive cycle, in Kali - yuga. The only measure of it is money, tangible value. The man here is just an economic animal, which lives only for his own pleasure. Liberal ideology is based on the acceptance of a universal selfishness, and in fact the only legitimate criterion. It is a pragmatic and commercial. This is legalized corruption. How does it stand up? Eurasian answer is ideocrasy: the state must be built from the top to bottom, with the primacy of the spiritual impulse. This is an apparent contradiction to mercantile, pragmatic, and utilitarian. It is a hierarchical rule of the spirit, as opposed to the trade order; empire, red or white, as opposed to commercial, democratic republic, Sparta versus Athens, Rome versus Carthage, in a word - Continent versus the Sea. We must drive out the merchants from the temple. Only spirit can oppose universal liberal corruption, and it is this principle that has to be built in the state.
6. You use a bunch of 'occult' symbols like the sign of Jupiter or Jupiter's flash, the chaos star and so on. Same time people get more aware of occultism in highest circles ruling the earth from an indistincteble shadow - the actors are not even known to most of us - bloggers speculate and estimate the most horrible motivations behind all this. Jupiter's flash e.g. means something good like hope, an unexpected, lucky happening, times of pulsing life that bring positive changes with them, but chaos magick and such might frighten many people, especially because of the Jesus archetype in all of us, even muslims – how you think, they will accept the theory, find faith in it?
– Political doctrines and ideologies of our time are only distorted and largely or completely secularized, ancient forms of religious concepts and ideas. They have their distant, degenerate and late echo, devoid of its religious essence. But even in such form, often distorted beyond recognition, they still maintain their original archetypal content, together with a surprisingly large number of people. On the other hand, the masses are not able to accept the many concepts and ideas. Should it be surprising that there are profound differences between what is presented to the masses, and what the elite believe, or the pseudo-elite? But “at the end of time,” the truth is close at hand, but only rarely recognized. Symbols and archetypes work even if we are not conscious of them – especially then. The Archetype of Savior – Christ, hence the effect on Muslims or Buddhists, the archetype of God’s prophets too. Hindus know the nine avatars – the tenth is still expected. For Christians, Orthodox Christians, in particular, it is the second coming of Christ, the time of destruction and chaos, and time of the new birth. The end of one cycle, the beginning of a new one.
7. Prof. Dugin, you and the others theoreticists found a way to syncretize all these different influences, so if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you about the influence of freemasonry on you and also on president Putin. Do you belong to any lodge?
BN: I have no knowledge about whether Putin belongs to a Masonic lodge. And I do not think it is particularly important. As for me personally, however there are authors who belonged to Freemasonry and were to some extent, influenced me. But this applies to 19, 18 century, not the modern Masons. Was I a member of a lodge? If I was, do you think I'd admit that?
8. Some people know, that former Russian president Michail Gorbatchev gave permission to international freemasonry to do, what they usually do, as they call it philanthropy, perhaps he got his job by them. Stalin used to be a high grade freemason, but during cold war, freemasons' activities were officially prohibited. Did they continue in a covered way after Stalin's exclusion? How was it exactly, did he step out or was he thrown out of it?
BN: The influence of Freemasonry is probably much more important in some of the earlier epochs of history than it is today. I do not think that the Masons in our time are especially influential. There is, after all, a series of secret societies, some of which still remain truly secret and are able to drive or to significantly influence the course of historical events. Masonry would be, in this case, only the outer mantle, beneath which hide the true secret organizations, which represent genuine religious principles.
The influence of Freemasonry is probably much more important in some of the earlier epochs of history than it is today. I do not think that the Masons in our time especially influential. There is, after all, a series of secret societies, some of which still remain truly secret and are able to drive or to significantly influence the course of historical events. Masonry would, in this case, was only the outer mantle, beneath which hides the true secret organizations, which represent genuine religious principles.
Alexander Dugin in his "Conspirology" suggests quite different conspirologycal model, whose main geopolitical criteria. It is a conspiracy atlantists and conspiracy Eurasian, and the geopolitical model of the conspiracy, which the basic motive is „The great war of continents".
Gorbachev, in this case, is the agent of Atlanticism, Stalin dedicator of the continent, Land, Eurasia. According to this scheme, Stalin, piece by piece, not so much destroyed the Freemasons, but a secret network of atlantists. Of course, Of course, he's not achieved complete success. Khrushchev's arrival to power is the victory of atlantists. Unlike Yeltsin, Putin, as you can see, fits well in the alternative geopolitical conspiracy - a conspiracy of Eurasian.
9. It's also said, that Putin at least was a member of the Royal Arc Lodge, which actually has no typical signs of freemasonry on its celebrating coats, there's this picture where Putin together with George W. Bush and a Chinese functioner together walk on a lawn, smiling happily. Do you want to tell me about this development, give me insights? Did Putin perhaps step out of the lodge because of better influence by Prof. Dugin and friends?
BN: There is one very inspired author, whose concepts correspond to the theme of geopolitical conspiracy, “The great war continents", about what wrote Dugin - Jean Parvulesco. It is a kind of geopolitical mysticism. For him it is a new Eurasian empire, Empire of the End Times, which is the right person, according to Parvulesco, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. For Parvulesco, „Putin is the direct emanation of the secret revolutionary groups of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union“. Putin there's almost sacred role. He is a true messiah of the new empire. Parvulesco claims that Putin is prepared for its mission for years. It now appearances moment of dramatic change. At this point, it is barely discernible, considered Parvulesco, but it will soon become apparent.
10. How is the position of 4PT toward interest on lent money?
BN: Plato and Aristotle condemned usury. Aristotle argues that „money can not bare the money, it may only country“. This condemnation is repeated in the Old Testament, and also in Gospel, through the words of Christ. In the Middle Ages, the Catholic and Orthodox churches are all prohibited interest. That was the case in the east, in Byzantium. It was the kind of dishonest profit. Roman Popes, as well as a range of theological authority, usury was condemned as heresy. Model of Islamic banking today excludes interest.
Interest is the principle of capitalism, especially liberal capitalism. Calvin and his followers allow usury, which is called the "guardian of usury". As you can see, usurers (bankers) today rule the world, it really is the last stage of liberal capitalism. These are the money-changers in the temple. Of course, interest is incompatible with tradition, with the spirit, with Eurasia.
11. More people here get aware of our former politicians chancelor Kohl and foreign minister Genscher having lied on us regarding 2+4 chats in early 90s which lead to reunion of FRG and GDR regarding what Gorbatshev has said about returning Prussia – how is position of 4PT on that issue?
BN: Germany should be united, just like Russia, or Serbia (Serbia, The Republic of Srpska, etc..), but not because it would form a homogeneous and self-sufficient nation-state, according to the model of the French Revolution, but to free peoples and States able to form imperial units - imperial, by its spirit and magnitude. The logical outcome of Slavic and Orthodox peoples is the Eurasian empire. This is the "Third Rome," The Empire of the End Times.
Kohl's, unfortunately, lie Soviet leadership, and position of Gorbachev was liberal, atlantistic, pro-Western postion (not pro-German). It was a betrayal. So that the restoration of the USSR in some form today is a necessity. The sooner this happens, the sooner they will end the period of American hegemony. We are now moving towards a multipolar world, however that, for many, was painful.
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